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	<title>Comments on: RDF meets NoSQL</title>
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	<link>http://decentralyze.com/2010/03/09/rdf-meets-nosql/</link>
	<description>Knock Down Walled-Garden Walls</description>
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		<title>By: NoSQL Daily &#8211; Sun Sep 26 &#8250; PHP App Engine</title>
		<link>http://decentralyze.com/2010/03/09/rdf-meets-nosql/#comment-344</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[NoSQL Daily &#8211; Sun Sep 26 &#8250; PHP App Engine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Sep 2010 08:15:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decentralyze.com/?p=135#comment-344</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] RDF meets NoSQL &#171; Decentralyze &#8211; Programming the Data Cloud [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] RDF meets NoSQL &laquo; Decentralyze &#8211; Programming the Data Cloud [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Unfolded Mind &#187; RDF and NoSQL</title>
		<link>http://decentralyze.com/2010/03/09/rdf-meets-nosql/#comment-324</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Unfolded Mind &#187; RDF and NoSQL]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Aug 2010 20:02:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decentralyze.com/?p=135#comment-324</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] http://decentralyze.com/2010/03/09/rdf-meets-nosql/ [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] <a href="http://decentralyze.com/2010/03/09/rdf-meets-nosql/" rel="nofollow">http://decentralyze.com/2010/03/09/rdf-meets-nosql/</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Valentin</title>
		<link>http://decentralyze.com/2010/03/09/rdf-meets-nosql/#comment-264</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Valentin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 May 2010 14:52:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decentralyze.com/?p=135#comment-264</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[for some background you might be interested in our implementation/experiments in using SimpleDB as a back-end for RDF storage (with quite sobering results). The experiments are reported here: http://vzach.de/papers/2010_nefors.pdf (this is a draft, the final version will appear here:  http://wasp.cs.vu.nl/larkc/nefors10/). Abstract:

We examine whether the existing &#039;Database in the Cloud&#039; service SimpleDB can be used as a back end to quickly and reliably store RDF data for massive parallel access. Towards this end we have
implemented &#039;Stratustore&#039;, an RDF store which acts as a back end for the Jena Semantic Web framework and stores its data within the SimpleDB.
We used the Berlin SPARQL Benchmark to evaluate our solution and compare it to state of the art triple stores. Our results show that for certain simple queries and many parallel accesses such a solution can have a higher throughput than state of the art triple stores. However, due to the very limited expressiveness of SimpleDB&#039;s query language, more complex queries run multiple orders of magnitude slower than the state of the art and would require special indexes. Our results point
to the need for more complex database services as well as the need for robust, possible query dependent index techniques for RDF.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>for some background you might be interested in our implementation/experiments in using SimpleDB as a back-end for RDF storage (with quite sobering results). The experiments are reported here: <a href="http://vzach.de/papers/2010_nefors.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://vzach.de/papers/2010_nefors.pdf</a> (this is a draft, the final version will appear here:  <a href="http://wasp.cs.vu.nl/larkc/nefors10/" rel="nofollow">http://wasp.cs.vu.nl/larkc/nefors10/</a>). Abstract:</p>
<p>We examine whether the existing &#8216;Database in the Cloud&#8217; service SimpleDB can be used as a back end to quickly and reliably store RDF data for massive parallel access. Towards this end we have<br />
implemented &#8216;Stratustore&#8217;, an RDF store which acts as a back end for the Jena Semantic Web framework and stores its data within the SimpleDB.<br />
We used the Berlin SPARQL Benchmark to evaluate our solution and compare it to state of the art triple stores. Our results show that for certain simple queries and many parallel accesses such a solution can have a higher throughput than state of the art triple stores. However, due to the very limited expressiveness of SimpleDB&#8217;s query language, more complex queries run multiple orders of magnitude slower than the state of the art and would require special indexes. Our results point<br />
to the need for more complex database services as well as the need for robust, possible query dependent index techniques for RDF.</p>
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		<title>By: Arto Bendiken</title>
		<link>http://decentralyze.com/2010/03/09/rdf-meets-nosql/#comment-254</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Arto Bendiken]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Apr 2010 17:31:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decentralyze.com/?p=135#comment-254</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sandro, you might be interested in this related discussion on Semantic Overflow:

http://www.semanticoverflow.com/questions/723/rdf-storages-vs-other-nosql-storages

Also, I have written up some of my own thoughts on the subject at:

http://blog.datagraph.org/2010/04/rdf-nosql-diff]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sandro, you might be interested in this related discussion on Semantic Overflow:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.semanticoverflow.com/questions/723/rdf-storages-vs-other-nosql-storages" rel="nofollow">http://www.semanticoverflow.com/questions/723/rdf-storages-vs-other-nosql-storages</a></p>
<p>Also, I have written up some of my own thoughts on the subject at:</p>
<p><a href="http://blog.datagraph.org/2010/04/rdf-nosql-diff" rel="nofollow">http://blog.datagraph.org/2010/04/rdf-nosql-diff</a></p>
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		<title>By: Dan Brickley</title>
		<link>http://decentralyze.com/2010/03/09/rdf-meets-nosql/#comment-201</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Brickley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 10:29:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decentralyze.com/?p=135#comment-201</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sandro - really great you&#039;re doing this outreach. Good luck with the talk, I look forward to hearing how it goes.

@dret - RDF&#039;s focus on &#039;GET&#039; is natural. SemWeb is a project fundamentally about describing stuff. It&#039;s by nature pretty passive and declarative, which is a natural fit with read-only emphasis on HTTP GET. Of course there are places (SPARQL Update) where we go beyond describing stuff, but that really is our core business. So the focus on GET is quite natural...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sandro &#8211; really great you&#8217;re doing this outreach. Good luck with the talk, I look forward to hearing how it goes.</p>
<p>@dret &#8211; RDF&#8217;s focus on &#8216;GET&#8217; is natural. SemWeb is a project fundamentally about describing stuff. It&#8217;s by nature pretty passive and declarative, which is a natural fit with read-only emphasis on HTTP GET. Of course there are places (SPARQL Update) where we go beyond describing stuff, but that really is our core business. So the focus on GET is quite natural&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: dret</title>
		<link>http://decentralyze.com/2010/03/09/rdf-meets-nosql/#comment-199</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dret]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 02:05:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decentralyze.com/?p=135#comment-199</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[great post, but i have my issues with the statement that RDF &quot;tends to follow Web Architecture, using HTTP and often using REST.&quot; i would argue that all that RDF mostly does is use HTTP URIs (which is good), but there is little mention in how to actually use HTTP beyond GETing something, and the current design of SPARQL as the main interaction protocol with RDF is pretty far from being RESTful. many NoSQL approaches, on the other hand, tend to be really good with understanding and implementing web architecture, because this is where they need to be good to get their scalability sorted out.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>great post, but i have my issues with the statement that RDF &#8220;tends to follow Web Architecture, using HTTP and often using REST.&#8221; i would argue that all that RDF mostly does is use HTTP URIs (which is good), but there is little mention in how to actually use HTTP beyond GETing something, and the current design of SPARQL as the main interaction protocol with RDF is pretty far from being RESTful. many NoSQL approaches, on the other hand, tend to be really good with understanding and implementing web architecture, because this is where they need to be good to get their scalability sorted out.</p>
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		<title>By: Danny</title>
		<link>http://decentralyze.com/2010/03/09/rdf-meets-nosql/#comment-191</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Danny]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 17:18:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decentralyze.com/?p=135#comment-191</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nice comparison. Just a random thought - you&#039;ve clearly thought about building RDF stores backed by NoSQL stores, but what about the other way around? Some of the RDF stores are getting pretty darn scalable (like Steve&#039;s :)

Although the data from KV might be seriously uninteresting and the storage suboptimal, the developer would have the option (somehow?) of later enriching it.

(Ages ago I did a replacement for Java Property files [straight KV] using a triplestore - worked fine, though no doubt wasn&#039;t worth the coding effort...)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice comparison. Just a random thought &#8211; you&#8217;ve clearly thought about building RDF stores backed by NoSQL stores, but what about the other way around? Some of the RDF stores are getting pretty darn scalable (like Steve&#8217;s <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Although the data from KV might be seriously uninteresting and the storage suboptimal, the developer would have the option (somehow?) of later enriching it.</p>
<p>(Ages ago I did a replacement for Java Property files [straight KV] using a triplestore &#8211; worked fine, though no doubt wasn&#8217;t worth the coding effort&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: Borislav Iordanov</title>
		<link>http://decentralyze.com/2010/03/09/rdf-meets-nosql/#comment-190</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Borislav Iordanov]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 17:03:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decentralyze.com/?p=135#comment-190</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sandro,

I will be at NoSQL Live talking about HyperGraphDB (http://www.kobrix.com/hgdb.jsp), and would love to chat with you about this as well. We should definitely meet up. I&#039;m very skeptical of the possibility to standardize NoSQL, and even more skeptical of the idea of reducing it to a one particular data model like RDF with SPARQL...in the sense that it will be very hard to see all NoSQL products implement SPARQL or some derivative as a standard query language. HyperGraphDB&#039;s model is even more general than RDF or any other graph model/database for that matter, and still it is a model with certain assumptions, certain rules to follow, certain best practices etc., and it would be to its detriment if the interface to it to be a common denominator with other DBs. I suspect the same is true for the other NoSQL DBs.

That said, your post is right on the mark since there are a lot of benefits to be gained in making semantic web standards part of the mainstream programmer&#039;s toolkit. NoSQL can help with that because it&#039;s lightweight, dynamic, low-cost, buzzy etc. while RDF can help NoSQL by putting in the &quot;industry standard&quot; label in power point presentations :)

Cheers,
Boris]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sandro,</p>
<p>I will be at NoSQL Live talking about HyperGraphDB (<a href="http://www.kobrix.com/hgdb.jsp" rel="nofollow">http://www.kobrix.com/hgdb.jsp</a>), and would love to chat with you about this as well. We should definitely meet up. I&#8217;m very skeptical of the possibility to standardize NoSQL, and even more skeptical of the idea of reducing it to a one particular data model like RDF with SPARQL&#8230;in the sense that it will be very hard to see all NoSQL products implement SPARQL or some derivative as a standard query language. HyperGraphDB&#8217;s model is even more general than RDF or any other graph model/database for that matter, and still it is a model with certain assumptions, certain rules to follow, certain best practices etc., and it would be to its detriment if the interface to it to be a common denominator with other DBs. I suspect the same is true for the other NoSQL DBs.</p>
<p>That said, your post is right on the mark since there are a lot of benefits to be gained in making semantic web standards part of the mainstream programmer&#8217;s toolkit. NoSQL can help with that because it&#8217;s lightweight, dynamic, low-cost, buzzy etc. while RDF can help NoSQL by putting in the &#8220;industry standard&#8221; label in power point presentations <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Cheers,<br />
Boris</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Sayre</title>
		<link>http://decentralyze.com/2010/03/09/rdf-meets-nosql/#comment-189</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Sayre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 15:44:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decentralyze.com/?p=135#comment-189</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Some people have been critical of using SPARQL as a query language for graph databases, which would seem to put the two at odds working effectively and efficiently with RDF. The argument is that what should be easily queryable in a graph DB, is actually difficult and sometimes impossible when using SPARQL.

There have been some efforts in the past to create a query language for semantic graph databases. I’m not sure of the status of the current effort but this paper is an interesting read on the topic. You are probably aware of these efforts, but just in case, here is the link: http://www.bearcave.com/misl/misl_tech/dsge_query_language.pdf

But, as I am just starting to investigate how to use graph DBs in a Social Semantic Web platform that we’re starting to build, I am no expert. Perhaps this issue is now moot.

I’m encouraged by Peter’s comment as we are looking closely at using Neo4j. The other contender is InfoGrid.

It seems to me that graph DBs, with their ability to clearly define link types, are powerful systems that can effectively encode semantic relationships between nodes. In fact, they appear to be perfect modelers of RDF triples, with the nodes representing subjects and objects and the edges (relationships) representing predicates. Perhaps creating a SPARQL abstraction layer for graphDBs would allow these data to be effectively discovered.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some people have been critical of using SPARQL as a query language for graph databases, which would seem to put the two at odds working effectively and efficiently with RDF. The argument is that what should be easily queryable in a graph DB, is actually difficult and sometimes impossible when using SPARQL.</p>
<p>There have been some efforts in the past to create a query language for semantic graph databases. I’m not sure of the status of the current effort but this paper is an interesting read on the topic. You are probably aware of these efforts, but just in case, here is the link: <a href="http://www.bearcave.com/misl/misl_tech/dsge_query_language.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.bearcave.com/misl/misl_tech/dsge_query_language.pdf</a></p>
<p>But, as I am just starting to investigate how to use graph DBs in a Social Semantic Web platform that we’re starting to build, I am no expert. Perhaps this issue is now moot.</p>
<p>I’m encouraged by Peter’s comment as we are looking closely at using Neo4j. The other contender is InfoGrid.</p>
<p>It seems to me that graph DBs, with their ability to clearly define link types, are powerful systems that can effectively encode semantic relationships between nodes. In fact, they appear to be perfect modelers of RDF triples, with the nodes representing subjects and objects and the edges (relationships) representing predicates. Perhaps creating a SPARQL abstraction layer for graphDBs would allow these data to be effectively discovered.</p>
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		<title>By: Kingsley Idehen</title>
		<link>http://decentralyze.com/2010/03/09/rdf-meets-nosql/#comment-188</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kingsley Idehen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 15:18:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://decentralyze.com/?p=135#comment-188</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sandro,

Initial binding point between NoSQL and Quad Stores is that both are EAV Graph oriented. 

Graph traversal expressions are main thing NoSQL folks assume is missing from SPARQL based RDF Quad Stores.

As for reasoning, this aspect is sorta lost on the NoSQL community (as is it most). But as huge amounts of Linked Data continue to emerge, the value of reasoning will become self evident.

As you can imagine, Virtuoso handles graph traversal expressions via SPARQL extensions, here are some live examples based on the 8.5 Billion+ RDF Quad Store at: http://lod.openlinksw.com (/sparql or /isparql will work for custom queries):

1. http://bit.ly/9QNdec -- N degrees of TimBL using Virtuoso&#039;s SPARQL path expressions extension
2. http://lod.openlinksw.com/demo_queries/ -- for other queries you can run against this LOD Cloud Cache instance of Virtuoso .


Kingsley]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sandro,</p>
<p>Initial binding point between NoSQL and Quad Stores is that both are EAV Graph oriented. </p>
<p>Graph traversal expressions are main thing NoSQL folks assume is missing from SPARQL based RDF Quad Stores.</p>
<p>As for reasoning, this aspect is sorta lost on the NoSQL community (as is it most). But as huge amounts of Linked Data continue to emerge, the value of reasoning will become self evident.</p>
<p>As you can imagine, Virtuoso handles graph traversal expressions via SPARQL extensions, here are some live examples based on the 8.5 Billion+ RDF Quad Store at: <a href="http://lod.openlinksw.com" rel="nofollow">http://lod.openlinksw.com</a> (/sparql or /isparql will work for custom queries):</p>
<p>1. <a href="http://bit.ly/9QNdec" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/9QNdec</a> &#8212; N degrees of TimBL using Virtuoso&#8217;s SPARQL path expressions extension<br />
2. <a href="http://lod.openlinksw.com/demo_queries/" rel="nofollow">http://lod.openlinksw.com/demo_queries/</a> &#8212; for other queries you can run against this LOD Cloud Cache instance of Virtuoso .</p>
<p>Kingsley</p>
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